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Re: Musical snobbery (was Re: Songs for BL)

Peter (Monkey) wrote:

> D.LANCASTER@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> >
> > .........So the less you know the more you enjoy?   Ignorance is bliss?  Would
> > you apply the same criteria for car maintainance or brain surgery - I
> > suspect/hope not!!!
> 
> No - not at all. Who said anything about being ignorant. Just that understanding
> 'real' music is a pleasureable activity. And why do you compare music to brain
> surgery etc.? Is that not like counting apples and oranges?

Cameron had widened the discussion to include art and poetry in 
addition to music, and suggested that by studying something more
we understand it less.  I widened the discussion still further in an attempt
to show that this stance was potentially problematic...you've been 
given the anaesthetic and the surgeon says to you "I don't like to 
think too hard about performing this operation in case it spoils my 
enjoyment"...I'm happy with the analogy, but perhaps that of 
architect might be better:  I once showed Peter Maxwell Davies one of 
my scores and he told me that if I was an architect my house would 
fall down.  And what is 'real' music?  If it is music that people 
enjoy listening to then we must include BL (for Adrian R and Alec G), 
Chromascope (for Andy W) and Grimethorpe Aria (for me).  

> >  If everyone was content to accept music at face
> > value and dispense with understanding we wouldn't have any composers
> > and there would be far fewer conductors around...
> 
> True - each to their own.

We agree???  Yikes!
> 
> > Surely art (sorry, Art) works on a number of levels and the more you
> > listen to a piece of music the more those deeper levels are revealed.  The
> > reason I enjoy a work such as Paganini Variations, for example, is because
> > every time I listen to it I can find something new.
> 
> But nevertheless, you like listening to it beacuase it is pleasant on the ear.

Initially perhaps, but that's only one aspect of it.  I expect more 
from music than 'just being pleasant on the ear', I want it to 
express something and possibly even to challenge my expectations. 

> >  Contemporary
> > music can be quite complex so it probably takes more listenings - and
> > a greater commitment on the part of the listener - before you arrive at a
> > point where you can appreciate it most fully.
> 
> Correct. But as I said in another reply to Cameron's mail. be careful not to get
> involved with the elephants.

I don't have a problem with elephants!  I've heard it said that beauty is in 
the eye of the beholder so if my eyes (or ears) tell me that something 
is art, I trust them. 

> > More commercial music (pop, musicals, Edrich Seibert arrangements
> > etc.) is intended to be more immediately accessible so generally speaking
> > doesn't have so many layers to grasp.  It is less complex and more
> > likely to drive you insane after four or five hearings.
> 
> I disagree. It is the 'clever' stuff that drives me insane - not Siebert etc.
>
I don't see why a contemporary work such as BL is any more 'clever'
(I presume you use the word in a pejorative sense) than any other 
piece of serious music.  I enjoy Grimethorpe Aria not because it is 
clever - it is a fairly straightforward statement in many respects - 
I simply enjoy the sounds.  

> > The effect that music has on you is due to the decisions the composer
> > took about which notes to write.  You can appreciate the music
> > without knowing the structure of chords or compositional techniques,
> > but a even a little knowledge about how Rach 2 was composed would help
> > you to enjoy listening to it even more, and would certainly be
> > beneficial to your performance.
> 
> The word 'little' seems to be very appropriate. A great in depth knowledge is not
> required. Therefore - good music!

I think (and hope) that you can enjoy good music whether you have a
considerable degree of knowledge or none.  Cameron's original mailing
suggested that knowledge impeded enjoyment - not true!

> >  If some
> > musicians choose to delve further to try to discover what makes
> > music tick, or what binds those layers of meaning together it doesn't
> > necessarily follow that they are being snobbish or trying to get one
> > over on everyone else - perhaps they are just curious.
> 
> Maybe - but how can you call John Cage's 'Silence' music for example?

Why bring JC into it?  If I enjoy a piece of music I might go and 
look at a score to find out more about it.  Cameron says I'm being 
snobbish.  I say "no Cameron, knowing more adds to my enjoyment".

Actually I perform 4'33" every year with my first year students!  It may
not be everyone's cup of tea but at least it makes them ask the question 
for themselves: 'is this music and if not, why not?'  Sometimes it 
works really well!!!   ( And isn't it interesting that Eric Ball borrowed 
small sections of it to use in Resurgam...).  

> > Actually, and being fairly honest, I must confess that I didn't enjoy
> > Songs for BL very much but not because it was too modern - I just
> > didn't find the musical ideas particularly interesting.
> 
> What ideas? I didn't know therre were any. Other than the soprano bit that goes
> like 'What a load of rubbish.....'

Yes...that's the bit I remember too...but didn't he talk about a 
march and a scherzo?  I'm not going to try to defend BL - as I said, 
I didn't enjoy it so much either.

> >   I suspect
> > it hasn't done the 'campaign for the promotion of contemporary
> > band music' any favours because now every time a new piece is proposed
> > folks remember their reaction to BL.  There are much better pieces
> > out there and better composers waiting for the chance.  (Elgar
> > Howarth is a brilliant musician - formerly a great trumpet player and
> > now a genius with the baton, but outside the band movement he isn't
> > known as a composer...)

> Why not?

Good question!  I did enjoy Fireworks - in my opinion he's at his best when
he has a clear model - in the case of Fireworks it was Benjamin 
Britten;  by his own admission BL was more of a personal statement.  
I don't blame Elgar Howarth for writing it but since we have so many 
brilliant composers around at the moment (I seem to remember that 
Alec G mailed a 'wish list' of names a few months ago) I would like to see those
responsible for commissioning test pieces looking further afield and 
requesting music from someone who is first and foremost a composer...

> > I like modern music, not for the clever things that composers do but
> > for the sounds it makes.  Grimethorpe Aria is one of the best pieces of
> > music I know, and sometimes, when I'm in the mood I get out my Harrison
> > Birtwistle CDs and listen to them purely for pleasure!!!
> 
> Each to their own as said before. But if I were you - i'd start taking 2 tablets a
> day!!!
> 
Just the two???

> :-)
> 
Thanks for the discussion; I'd buy you a beer if I could afford the 
air fare.

> Monkey

David


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