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Re: Musical snobbery (was Re: Songs for BL)

Cameron Mabon wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 D.LANCASTER@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > So the less you know the more you enjoy?   Ignorance is bliss?
> 
> Ah no! What I said was that someone shouldn't have to understand music 
> for it to make an impact. This is not the same as saying that music can 
> only be appreciated by people who don't know anything about it. What I do 
> object to 
> is that music "intellectuals" seem to be of the opinion that music makes 
> more impact on them than on the average layman.

...but that isn't what you said.   What got my goat was the inference 
that it was somehow snobbish (your subject title)  to be able to theorise
about music and that this underderstanding would lessen the enjoyment 
of listening to music. 

> > Would 
> > you apply the same criteria for car maintainance or brain surgery...
> 
> There is a difference between science and art. Music should certainly not 
> be treated in the same way as medicine or motor maintenance. 

Yes, of course.   But see my response to Peter/Monkey. 

> > If everyone was content to accept music at face 
> > value and dispense with understanding we wouldn't have any composers 
> > and there would be far fewer conductors around...
> 
> Agreed, but composers are the input to a piece of music. What makes an 
> impact on the audience is the output: the performance. Whilst it may be 
> necessary to understand music theory to provide the input, it should not 
> be necessary (IMHO) to understand it (fully) to benefit from the output.

Agreed again!  Can anyone fully understand a piece of music, 
including its composer?   That shouldn't prevent us from striving to 
understand more.  Your original mail suggested (to me) that you were 
arguing that understanding hindered enjoyment.

> > More commercial music (pop, musicals, Edrich Seibert arrangements 
> > etc.) is intended to be more immediately accessible so generally speaking 
> > doesn't have so many layers to grasp.  It is less complex and more 
> > likely to drive you insane after four or five hearings.   (Jazz is 
> > altogether another matter since it is different every time).
> 
> Mmmm. The general public never seems to tire of the Spice Girls' hits. 
> This is probably because (in general), the Spice Girls provide music at a 
> level that matches the musical understanding of the general public.

Agreed yet again!

>  More 
> seasoned listeners (i.e. those who can pick out the many underlying 
> layers in the music) may prefer one of the great "classical" composers 
> whose music matches their level of musical understanding. However, I 
> think that many music "intellectuals" have become so obsessed with the 
> technicalities of music that they overlook the fact that music is 
> supposed to be expressive. I think composers like Harrison Birtwhistle 
> have cottoned on to this and produce incredibly complex "music" with no 
> real expression or emotion

Massive disagreement!!!   Birtwistle's music is great because it is 
so expressive and satisfies intellectual demands at the same time.  I 
'discovered' his music when I was 15 and spotty and had the 
intellectual sophistication of a Welsh baritone-playing sheep.  What 
evidence do you have that HB is up to some sort of intellectual 
con-trick?    JS Bach also wrote very complex music, and in 
comparison to many HB is a paragon of simplicity.

>  just to satisfy intellectual demand. And good 
> luck to him! If I could produce paintings similar to those produced by 
> Nellie the Elephant, I would sell them and live care-free on the profits.

No comment!

> > The effect that music has on you is due to the decisions the composer 
> > took about which notes to write.  You can appreciate the music
> > without knowing the structure of chords or compositional techniques, 
> > but a even a little knowledge about how Rach 2 was composed would help 
> > you to enjoy listening to it even more, and would certainly be 
> > beneficial to your performance.  
> 
> Granted, a little knowledge may be beneficial. However, as I explained 
> above, I think too much knowledge is a dangerous thing.

But you haven't said why.  How can too much knowledge about music be 
dangerous?

>  Having said that, 
> at the end of the day, music that creates an impact is (by definition) 
> good music (at least subjectively). Whether you prefer the Spice Girls, 
> Birtwhistle or Herb Alpert doesn't really matter as long as the music 
> works for you.

Yup.

> > Hang on Cameron - arch anti-intellectual - aren't you studying for a degree
> > at Oxford?  Then I suppose you take your subject at face value and never
> > scratch below the surface but feel most comfortable with those superficial
> > aspects which are apparent to the lowest common denominator
> 
> :) I actually finished my exams last week, so I am no longer an 
> intellectual type! Seriously though, there is a huge difference between 
> science and music. In fact, many of the underlying layers of 
> biology/science are completely boring compared with the exterior.

Unlike music - my point!

>  It is not necessary to understand the intricacies of the insect cuticle to 
> appreciate the beauty of a butterfly. If you want to get a degree, then 
> it might be a good idea to study the cuticular composition. If you want 
> to be an amateur entomologist and simply collect butterflies for the 
> their beauty, it is not necessary. 

But if you take it seriously and want to understand more in order to 
heighten your appreciation it really is OK and it doesn't make you 
any kind of snob... (...Anorak maybe, snob, no...)
> 
> Sorry about the length of this message. I do get a bit carried away 
> sometimes...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cameron

Thanks for the discussion.  Cameron:  I hope that your exam results exceed 
expectations...

David 

> -- 
>   Cameron Mabon (International Idiot)	   cmabon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>   Piano, cornet and duck-call
>   Fundamental Brass	       http://users.ox.ac.uk/~newc0349/fun
>   City of Oxford Band     http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/~cmabon/COSB.html
> 
> 
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