Brass Band Logo

NJH Music Logo

Some of the contents of the pages on this site are Copyright © 2016 NJH Music
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: alternative instrument for a horn player

--------------295E82D96402C306D261A9DD

Hmmmmmm......... Where do I
start................................................

David W. Buckley wrote:

I've known Mark for 30 years and he has consistently tried to expand the
brass band envelope while doing interesting things with the music that
remain playable.
Geez  Dave....  Are we that old?

Anyone remember "Manhattan Brass?"
I'm sure not too many........

Dave.... it was good hearing from you.  Thanks for the nice
words.........................
********************************************************************
Adrian................
I have been familiar with your work since your Maynard days.  I have
always enjoyed hearing your charts.  I have played your "Chelsea Bridge
arrangement (bass trombone as well) for brass band.  One of my favorites
in that idiom.  Arranging is such a subjective thing and as you know,
so many different things can work... but each and every arranger has
their own stamp and style. I would like to make a few comments on your
points.

Adrian Drover wrote:
> All sections of a brass band  are made up in "fours" except for the
> trombones.....

> (4) tubas

All play in unison, or octaves or 5ths.
Not true Adrian.........There are many scores with independent  tuba
(bass) parts ... (solos and lines) and many with four part harmony
written in the tubas.  Here are a few examples:
Blitz (Derek Bourgeois) the opening-Figure 8 &9-the ending,
Ballet for Band (Joseph Horovitz) Figure 5 a melody in tenths,
The Plantagenets (Edward Gregson) a tuba quartet in Figure 8,
Masquerade (Philip Wilby) He uses 2nds and 3rds all the way through the
piece and totally independent Eb & Bb Tuba parts
Cloudcatcher Fells (John McCabe) There are four separate tuba staves all
the way through the score.
I could go on and on..... the masters at tuba scoring in my opinion are
Erik Leidzen, Gilbert Vinter and Bill Himes. (Leidzen's Sweet Hour of
Prayer...what a gem)

> (2) euphs& (2) Bar.
Not a matched section.
I have to disagree with you once again Adrian.  If you score them,
baritones on top it's a beautiful blend.  I arranged a  Hi-Lo chart for
brass band featuring the two baritones and two euphoniums (Surrey with
the Fringe On Top)
I am currently doing Four Brothers (Woody Herman) for 2 euphoniums and 2
Eb Basses.

> flugel & (3) horns
Not a matched section, but it can work, just as well as flugel and 3
troms.

I also arranged a Hi-Lo chart on Birth of The Blues for flugel and horns
and it works well. Listen to the flugel-tenor horn duets in Resurgam..
Perfect match!!!

> (4) solo cornets
Usually written in unison or octaves, very rarely in 4 part voicings.

Adrian.... look at the score for Checkmate (Bliss arr. Eric Ball).  Many
composers and arrangers are using 2 staves for SoloCornets now. Example:
Sorcerer's Apprentice (Derek Bourgeouis) I have used 2 staves and always
write at least 2 part divis.

> (4) back row cornets (2) 2nds & (2) 3rds.

There are countless scores where you will find 4 part harmony with the
2nds and 3rds.

Most often in 2 parts, never 4. For a 4 part voicing it is usual to use
all solos, 2nds and 3rds, 2 players on each part. Back row are best
dovetailed with front row.

This is true, but not the only way.  I try to give the back row special
things to play and lots of mutes...... good experience for them.  I
never write down to them

> The Sop and Rep are there for range, strength, support and colour.
The Sop is certainly useful in a solo capacity, or to support the top
cornets, or extend the range a further octave.

Octave???? maybe 3 notes.......

I have however never understood the need for a Repiano. It has no more
range than the other 8 players. It has no different colour to the other
8.
As a solo instrument, it can only do what one of the other 8 might do
just
as well. It's only useful function is to double up the melody, which the

soprano does anyway, or counterpoint line.

Adrian..... The repiano is one of the most useful players in the band.
He and the 1st baritone are the most underated players in the band. The
repiano player is the leader of the back row. Perfect for octaves
sitting right next to the soprano. He is like a 2nd Principal
cornet..... good for solos and experienced with mutes.  can double with
anyone in the band while the solo cornets are busy.  When I write
incidental jazz noodling (written out) I always put it in the repiano
part.

This position could easily be sacrificed for a 2nd flugelhorn. This
would
create another quartet of matched instruments in the band (2 flugels and
2
euphs).

I would never sacrifice the repiano..... and you just said earlier that
2 baritiones and 2 euphoniums were not a match...... 2 flugels and 2
euphoniums are not nearly as much of a match if your talking about
balance but it would be interesting.. but here again, the repiano could
double on flugel to give you that if you want it..

> So one more trombone would be ideal.
I agree.

I'm glad... That's my one pet peeves although the Salvation Army uses 5
trombone players usually and sometimes go into 5 parts....  (a luxury)

>  As far as adding flugels, there is no reason why the back row cornets

> couldn't double on flugels which would enhance the tone colour of the
> brass band. It would create a beautiful texture especially with 4
> flugels in unison, and 5... if you include the regular flugel.

Again, I agree, and I might add that flugels voiced in 4 parts is a
really
wonderful sound too.

I agree but you just said earlier that you wouldn't give the 2nds and
3rds 4 parts or did I misunderstand that?

> Brass bands still haven't utilized mutes to their best advantage.
Many
> brass band players still don't know how to blow through mutes.

Many brass bands don't have the mutes that arrangers would like to use.
Cups, harmons, plungers and buckets for cornets; cups, plungers and
buckets for trombones.

Yes, It's a very small outlay of money  when you consider the benifit
you get in order to get more colour in a brass band.  I think it's just
a mind set......Most players don't think it matters. They think they are
just to soften them.

> There is no place for french horns... They don't blend with the flugel

> as a section and can be over bearing.

They don't need to blend with the flugel. The whole point of using F
horns
would be to add contrast, something that the brass band sorely lacks.
The
symphony orchestra has more contrast than any other kind of band, but
there is no problem with balance in a well rehearsed orchestra. Even
instruments like oboe and bassoon, which are almost impossible to blend
with anything else find a place in the ensemble, and they are great as
solo instruments. The F horns blend so well that they can combine with
any
other section of the orchestra.

Yes... the do need to blend ... there is 150 years of music published
with that in mind.  The Flugel is in many cases, the leader of the horn
section.  I love the french horn and once in a while they would work
just fine in a brass band.  Why change what works?  If you want to put a
special evening on with a special brass band instrumentation, that's
great but who is going to publish it.  Kenton tried mellophoniums,
Sauter Finnigan and Johnny Richards used a tuba.... but 22,000 high
school bands and 7,000 college big bands are still 4 trumpets, 4
trombones, and 5 saxes.  Rob McConnell uses 2 french horns in his big
band but what does that have to do with the standard big band
instrumetation.  North Texas State  has 13 big bands..... all the same
tradition instrumentation.
The symphony orchestra has every kind of missmatch and match but it
works because of the composers. You are talking "apples and oranges."
The brass band is basically one family of instruments..... a total
match.

> I have written several things for The River City Brass Band (all pros)

> and there is always a balance problem.  If you want to use trumpets
and
> french horns then just start a brass ensemble. If you want to add bass

> and guitar then start a big band.

In my experience as a writer, I have found than many brass bands wish to

achieve a big band sound. This could be achieved much more successfully
with a four trombone team and rhythm bass. Admittedly, you can stick a
baritone horn (or 2) on the 3rd part (or 2nd and 4th parts) to make a
quasi trombone section, but it's not as successful as the real thing.
And
there isn't a tuba player alive that can get an authentic feel on a
pizzicato bass part. It just ain't built that way.

I beg to differ with you.. I know a few tuba players that would turn
your head around, Carl Kleinstuber (an American in Holland), Joe
Hanchrow (New York freelance), Marty Ericson (Brass Band of
Battlecreek)... even Howard Johnson...but why not just start a big band
then... most brass band players will never swing like jazz players
anyway.  There are always concessions.............

> Why tamper with an already good (and established) sound.  And if you
> want to hear a standard brass band play jazz at it's best, then listen

> to Brass Band of Battle Creek.... Before you go changing things....
> learn  how to produce the sound and play the concept..... and learn to

> "swing".  Brass Band of Battle Creek is the "proof of the pudding"
that
> it can be done. In the U.K., the only band I have heard that comes
close
> to the proper concept has been Grimethorpe.

Yes, Grimethorpe is one of the bands that I have written for in big band

style and they do it very well.

We agree...........

> And besides, publishers of brass band music will never ever change. No

> money in it for them. I have never come out of a fantastic concert
after
> hearing Black Dyke or any other good band and said ... Gee... I wish
> there were two flugels or 4 trombones.....

I can't argue with that.

> There is an expression in America... "If it aint broke, don't fix it"

> Mark Freeh (New York City)

Cheers Mark. It's been a fun argument (or should I say discussion)?

Adrian

Adrian.... just a discussion....  I would like to meet you some day.  If
you ever come to New York City, look me up... you have a place to
stay.......

The rest of you guys on the list will have to find your own place,
Adrian and I will be hanging out.  Cheers.....

P.S.  Sorry this was so long......but it's the only subject I have ever
responded to....



>



--------------295E82D96402C306D261A9DD


--------------295E82D96402C306D261A9DD--


--
unsubscribe or receive the list in digest form, mail a message of 'help' to
listserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Services] [Contact Us] [Advertise with us] [About] [Tell a friend about us] [Copyright © 2016 NJH Music]