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Re: Re: Bass Clef parts

In message <b4.18c75bc.2921484b@xxxxxxx>, Oldsmar@xxxxxxx writes
>Another thing that has flummoxed me is the whole transposition process from
>treble to bass clef.  Perhaps someone here can enlighten me.  When I took
>piano class, I learned that 'middle C' was common for treble and bass clef.
>True, it LOOKED different (one ledger line below the staff in treble and one
>ledger line above in bass) but it was the same note.

The distinction that needs to be made here is between transposing and
non-transposing clefs. In the treble clef you play in, in Bb, you see a
C, finger it open, it sounds Bb. It could equally well be written in
treble clef in C, where you see a Bb, finger it open (it's the same note
as what you'd normally call C), it sounds Bb. If a C was written in
this, you'd finger it 1+3 (as it's the same as a D in 'normal' brass
band Bb treble clef). The same logic applies to the bass clef, except
that transposing bass clef is much rarer.
The confusion you describe below is a result of trying to equate treble
clef in Bb with bass clef in C - it won't match unless the two clefs
have the same transposition.

>
>I'm a flugelhorn player.  When I look at a 'low C' with one ledger line below
>the treble clef staff, it looks like a C but sounds like a concert Bb.  If I
>take that same note to bass clef, would still should sound like a concert Bb
>but shouldn't it also look like a bass clef C (one ledger line above the bass
>clef staff)?

> Why is it that a treble clef Bb instrument (tenor trombone for
>example) is "non-transposing" when playing in the treble clef but but an
>extra step has to be figured in when rewriting the part to be read in bass
>clef?

Tradition, basically, which dictates that standard treble clef parts are
transposing, and standard bass clef parts aren't. Exceptions exist, of
course - I've played Trombone parts in non-transposing (you've got the
terms the wrong way round above, by the way) treble clef, which is
slightly bizarre - looks very low, feels very high, and Molenaar music
in Holland generally supplies transposing bass clef parts for the low
brass.

>
>The subject of the bass trombone being the only brass band instrument to read
>bass clef is another area of concern.  When I ask those who write and arrange
>brass band music why this is the case, I'm met with blank stares or verbal
>tap dancing that would make Fred Astair proud.  If the bass trombone is
>written in bass clef, why not all the traditionally bass clef instruments?
>Maybe it's because no cornet player in their right mind would ever want to
>play a bass trombone.
>
>I've never seen these issues adequately explained in layman's terms.  Is
>there someplace where they are??
>

This confused me a little until I realised that the reply I'd posted to
the same question was in the parallel discussion (also initiated by
Robin Norman) taking place on the TubaEuph list! Most confusing.
Anyway, here it is:-

/In message <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011113085235.17305A-
/100000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health
/Science
/writes
/>I don't know how the "everyone switches if need be" theory explains
/why
/>the bass trombone in a British style brass band is notated in bass
/clef.
/>If you're playing a traditional F bass trombome, why not transpose
/that
/>from Bb treble clef just like everyone else?
/
/Also note that the tenors used to be notated in tenor clef (up until
/about WW2). I've always presumed the same thing - that Trombones are
/enough of a different beast (what with slides, previously established
/musical niches, etc.) to have not come under the earliest treble clef
/standards in the mid 19th century. When the tenors changed to treble
/(not sure on the fine detail, but I imagine that this was done in the
/name of utility), the bass stayed in bass clef because the instruments
/in G (not F) didn't have the same ease of transition as the tenors. If
/tradition had placed the brass band bass trombone in Eb, they might be
/playing in treble clef today. Another consideration is that bass
/trombone parts in treble clef would involve a lot of leger lines, even
/on the G instrument with no thumb valve.

The point is that the tenor clef in C that the tenors used to read
occupies the same positions on the staff as the treble clef in Bb that
they now read. The Bass Trombone in G (or Bb indeed) had no such short
cut - you need to go down to Eb (Tuba length) to get the same effect in
bass clef.

Dave Taylor

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