The Brass Band Forum

Why do some bands overlap breathing all through a hymn tune verse?

It makes a verse sound like just one phrase!

It’s unmusical. It’s dire. It’s diabolical.

No self-respecting choir would ever sing a hymn that way.

Even organists phrase hymns properly, leaving gaps where the singers breathe. And organists can breathe at any time!

All band players should breathe together at the phrase endings: where the commas, full stops, exclamation marks, semi-colons are in the words. Well perhaps we can let the drummers off – we wish they’d stop breathing altogether anyway.

I’ve got a theory about why some band conductors allow and even encourage this bad habit:

THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO SHOW AND CONTROL PHRASING THROUGH STICK TECHNIQUE.

Such conductors are hopeless. Don’t let ‘em get away with it. They are probably charging your band far too big a fee anyway. Make ‘em do the job properly to earn their money.

A conductor worth his salt will indicate the phrasing, especially in a church service, even if it changes in successive verses (he’ll have prepared for this properly, of course ?!)

When I started playing in bands (aeons ago) there was an even worse mannerism: the basses, and, heaven forbid – the G Bass Trombone player, used to sustain over the tonic as a pedal into the beginning of the last verse. With a crescendo. Even as a seven year old I used to hope the floor would open beneath my chair. The memory of it is making me hyperventilate even now, after all these years. Happily, this quaint but terrible custom died out (and please, don’t for God’s sake – literally – revive it).

Let’s start a campaign to stamp out “relay-breathing” in hymn tunes.

Musicians in bands - unite against the Philistines!

Not really much to do with phrasing as such, but I can;t stand it when bands need a 'bass drum' uduring hymns.

That sounds bad! - Bass drums are meant for beats to keep the band in time - not during a hymn where every expression is meant to show.

That's all.. Jut thought i'd comment

Well, with all the bands I've ever played with very rarely have they used any percussion, even when they did there was very little.

Some hymn tunes sound fine with staggered breathing, often it can be quite successful producing a full sound. However, some hymn tunes definately need to show their phrases when played.

I have played in a contest once where the band (not Mount Charles) played 'Lloyd', that had staggered breathing throughout, due to the crescendo and diminuendo marks. With 4 bar phrasing it would of sounded very 'bitty'!!!

Well Franko, you do have a good point.

I am a conductor and most of the time I encourage my band to stagger in hymn tunes. This is partly for historical reasons as every band I have ever played in has played that way, but also to get the players listening to each other and working together.

On occasions, when using hymns to warm up, I ask them to breathe at the end of every phrase, the reason being to try to get them breathing together, listening to each other and to start and end phrases together.

When accompanying a choir or congregation in church I agree that it makes sense to breath at the end of every phrase, but apart from that, for the time being I will probably stick with the brass band tradition and get them to stagger. Sorry!

Maria.

Franko wrote:Why do some bands overlap breathing all through a hymn tune verse?

It makes a verse sound like just one phrase!

It’s unmusical. It’s dire. It’s diabolical.

No self-respecting choir would ever sing a hymn that way.

Even organists phrase hymns properly, leaving gaps where the singers breathe. And organists can breathe at any time!

All band players should breathe together at the phrase endings: where the commas, full stops, exclamation marks, semi-colons are in the words. Well perhaps we can let the drummers off – we wish they’d stop breathing altogether anyway.

I’ve got a theory about why some band conductors allow and even encourage this bad habit:

THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO SHOW AND CONTROL PHRASING THROUGH STICK TECHNIQUE.

Such conductors are hopeless. Don’t let ‘em get away with it. They are probably charging your band far too big a fee anyway. Make ‘em do the job properly to earn their money.

A conductor worth his salt will indicate the phrasing, especially in a church service, even if it changes in successive verses (he’ll have prepared for this properly, of course ?!)

When I started playing in bands (aeons ago) there was an even worse mannerism: the basses, and, heaven forbid – the G Bass Trombone player, used to sustain over the tonic as a pedal into the beginning of the last verse. With a crescendo. Even as a seven year old I used to hope the floor would open beneath my chair. The memory of it is making me hyperventilate even now, after all these years. Happily, this quaint but terrible custom died out (and please, don’t for God’s sake – literally – revive it).

Let’s start a campaign to stamp out “relay-breathing” in hymn tunes.

Musicians in bands - unite against the Philistines!

Well, you make your points rather aggressively, but... I wholeheartedly agree nonetheless. Some conductors claim that 'it's a good breathing exercise.' Well, there's plenty of opportunity to exercise breathing without having recourse to ruining hymn tunes. I'm not convinced it's necessarily to do with a stick technique problem with conductors, though I think they'd be far better off not using a stick at all when conducting hymns, (having conducted an evensong in Southwark Cathedral where they actually forbade the use of a baton... not that I brought one along in the first place!) and indicating the phrases using arm/hand technique or even physically breathing as well to make their point. In my experience, many lower section bands, when first playing a hymn, will detach notes automatically, probably as a result of the general style of playing they've become accustomed to. It's what I call the 'implied staccato' where it isn't actually written in the parts but brass players generally, particularly in loud march type or fanfare type pieces/sections will naturally clip notes short. Nothing wrong in that in said instances but it does sometimes carry over into pieces or sections of pieces where it's not required!

Part of the problem lies within the brass band hymn books themselves, certainly with regard to different phrases in different verses, (the 'How Silently' verse of O Little Town of Bethlehem, to use an example) because they're rarely, if ever, indicated. Difficult to indicate on the actual sheet music as such, perhaps, but perhaps a foreword in each BB hymn book saying 'Conductors are encouraged to avail themselves of one or more standard church hymnals (i.e. NEH, Ancient and Modern revised etc.) to see how the phrasing is dictated in each verse and to convey that convincingly where appropriate.' wouldn't go amiss. Maybe the more recent brass band hymn books include something like this, I don't know.

The other gripe about brass band hymns I have is not so much the playing of them but the keys some of them have been transcribed in. I know there are tricky keys on brass instruments, but there are tricky keys on most, if not all musical instruments. Makes me wonder whether the invention of the piston valve was worth it sometimes. Some of the hymns in BB hymn and carol books sound like a dirge when transposed into the 'flat' keys where they weren't written in a 'flat' key in the first place!