I have stamina problems when playing cornet. I am looking for any tips or techniques, mouthpiece ideas, special practices etc, or even similar case histories. When relaxed with mouth closed, my large front teeth overlap my lower teeth, with lips opening about halfway down my front teeth. To play I part my teeth, push my lower jaw forward (to align lower teeth to top) and place the mouthpiece 1/3 upper lip. The gap between lips does not clear my top teeth, but rests against them. Playing always starts well, until my lips start to swell and I think retrict the vibration (because they are resting against the teeth) - playing gets harder and harder and I get air leakage around the edge of the mouthpiece ( a Wick 2B). My problem increased when, due to an accident, I had to have both front upper teeth veneered (porcelain capped), which has the effect of thickening the teeth.
I do practice regularly - long notes, flexibility etc, but stamina always lets me down.
Any ideas what I can do? (apart from take up the violin).
Stamina
Stamina continued
Following up on my previous note about my stamina problems, I am currently experimenting by changing cornet mouthpiece from a Wick 2B to a Bach 7E (one of my old Soprano mouthpieces) - The change to the sound coming out of my Sovereign 928 large-bore cornet is dramatic - from the dull traditional cornet sound with the Wick to a very bright, halfway to trumpet sound with the Bach. Of course it is a bit like cheating playing the very shallow cupped, narrow throated Bach mouthpiece - but I need a lot less pressure for the high notes, which now come easily. Less pressure equates to less cutting off the blood supply to the lips = more stamina. An added bonus is that response time from tongueing a note or changing valves for a note to it actually sounding has increased giving a greater clarity to faster moving passages. Because the notes are brighter, the instrument also sounds twice as load.
The down side is that is takes a lot more control to make the notes sound good, especially in the lower register. I have to really concentrate and think about the aperture in my lips spreading right across the mouthpiece. Also I have to be very careful with vibrato, which requires a lot less jaw wobble than the old Wick mouthpeice (otherwise it sounds corny). I am now waiting for my lip muscles to waste away 'cheating' on this Bach mouthpiece after spending years working doubly hard on the Wick!!
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I have been asked to step up to Principle Cornet (due to the departure of our regular principle) at Mid Sussex Brass. I'll let you know how I get on.
The down side is that is takes a lot more control to make the notes sound good, especially in the lower register. I have to really concentrate and think about the aperture in my lips spreading right across the mouthpiece. Also I have to be very careful with vibrato, which requires a lot less jaw wobble than the old Wick mouthpeice (otherwise it sounds corny). I am now waiting for my lip muscles to waste away 'cheating' on this Bach mouthpiece after spending years working doubly hard on the Wick!!
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I have been asked to step up to Principle Cornet (due to the departure of our regular principle) at Mid Sussex Brass. I'll let you know how I get on.
Ray Woods
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Stamina Part 3 - embouchure research
Well, I have been busy researching embouchures on the Net. And what a lot of different ideas there are out there. Things I have found out and will be trying are:
1. The flat chin myth. You think that you should have a flat chin, tight against the gums/teeth when playing - and you suffer a lack of stamina? Well forget the flat chin - it appears to work for only 1 on 10 people. The other 9 are forcing their lower lip muscles into tension that can not be sustained. So allow a little bend in your lower lip.
2. 'The Balanced Embouchure' - By Jeff Smiley - http://www.trumpetteacher.net/welcome.html
If the all American hype is to be believed, then this series of exercises (which I do not have) will give super lip power, stamina, flaxibiliy and make you more attractive to women (or men). Reading through the hype, it involves extending the range of lip movements beyond the normal playing range - giving your lips a sort of gymnasium workout. Testamonials in the website claim fabulous results. I believe the focus of it is to play super squeaky notes, and really farty low notes - rolling the lips in and out between. I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain (including a hernia getting the squeaky notes!) by giving it a go.
In between research, I had my first gig as the new principle cornet at a local village fete. Luckily the ex principle turned up to play some of his Jazz specials, but I tried my best on the rest, on the Back 7E mouthpiece...and sight reading most of the stuff (I was 3rd cornet a year ago!). I had mixed results, sometimes sounding good, but notes occasionally fading due to my old stamina problem. But hopefully my new unflat chin and Jeff Smiley workout for the lips will kiss the wobbly note days goodbye. Might even move back to my bucket of a mouthpiece (the Wick 2B) if all goes well.
I'm also going to get my old 928 Largebore Sov serviced (cleaned inside and out and small dents knocked out) - I'll tell you if it makes a difference.
Wish me luck. I'll report back on progress.......that is if anybody actually reads this stuff?
1. The flat chin myth. You think that you should have a flat chin, tight against the gums/teeth when playing - and you suffer a lack of stamina? Well forget the flat chin - it appears to work for only 1 on 10 people. The other 9 are forcing their lower lip muscles into tension that can not be sustained. So allow a little bend in your lower lip.
2. 'The Balanced Embouchure' - By Jeff Smiley - http://www.trumpetteacher.net/welcome.html
If the all American hype is to be believed, then this series of exercises (which I do not have) will give super lip power, stamina, flaxibiliy and make you more attractive to women (or men). Reading through the hype, it involves extending the range of lip movements beyond the normal playing range - giving your lips a sort of gymnasium workout. Testamonials in the website claim fabulous results. I believe the focus of it is to play super squeaky notes, and really farty low notes - rolling the lips in and out between. I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain (including a hernia getting the squeaky notes!) by giving it a go.
In between research, I had my first gig as the new principle cornet at a local village fete. Luckily the ex principle turned up to play some of his Jazz specials, but I tried my best on the rest, on the Back 7E mouthpiece...and sight reading most of the stuff (I was 3rd cornet a year ago!). I had mixed results, sometimes sounding good, but notes occasionally fading due to my old stamina problem. But hopefully my new unflat chin and Jeff Smiley workout for the lips will kiss the wobbly note days goodbye. Might even move back to my bucket of a mouthpiece (the Wick 2B) if all goes well.
I'm also going to get my old 928 Largebore Sov serviced (cleaned inside and out and small dents knocked out) - I'll tell you if it makes a difference.
Wish me luck. I'll report back on progress.......that is if anybody actually reads this stuff?
Ray Woods
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Stamina
when you say stamina, i assume you mean that your lips "go" fairly quickly.
if so, this might help. my conductor explained it to me, and it has helped my lips last a bit longer.
take a pen / pencil.
place between your lips - DO NOT BITE IT !
using your lip muscles, keep the pen / pencil horizontal for as long as possible.
when i first tried this, i could only do it for a few seconds, but over time it has strengthened my lip muscles.
not sure if it will help in your situation, but it might be worth a try.
if so, this might help. my conductor explained it to me, and it has helped my lips last a bit longer.
take a pen / pencil.
place between your lips - DO NOT BITE IT !
using your lip muscles, keep the pen / pencil horizontal for as long as possible.
when i first tried this, i could only do it for a few seconds, but over time it has strengthened my lip muscles.
not sure if it will help in your situation, but it might be worth a try.
thanks for the pen in mouth tip
Thanks very much for the pen in mouth tip. This I can easily exercise whilst staring into my PC at work. I will give it a go and get back to you if it improves my stamina.
Thanks for giving the time to reading and replying.
Ray
Thanks for giving the time to reading and replying.
Ray
Ray Woods
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Stamina continued - 'The Balanced Embouchure'
At last I have got hold of 'The Balanced Embouchure' book. I first found this novel set of exercises on the net, but only extracts were available on Jeff Smiley's website (www.trumpetteacher.net). I got a copy from a guy in the Netherlands who Jeff put me in touch with. Some rather bizarre lip exercises are contained within compared to normal teaching methods. But I will give it my best shot. The book reads very well, with lots of motivational american style hype. A CD of what the exersises sound like is also included with the book. However the proof of the pudding will be in whether doing the exercises improves my playing ability. Wish me luck.
Ray
Ray
Ray Woods
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Cornet Player
West Sussex
Hi ray,
If you go to http://www.trumpetherald.com/
and click on forum they have a whole section (among things) dedicated to B.E., range and endurance and cornet playing..... It contains a mixture of amatures and TOP professionals....
try it out!!!
Cheers
Jody
If you go to http://www.trumpetherald.com/
and click on forum they have a whole section (among things) dedicated to B.E., range and endurance and cornet playing..... It contains a mixture of amatures and TOP professionals....
try it out!!!
Cheers
Jody
EMBOUCHURE CHANGE
I wanted to tell you a story about one of my trombone players who, at 76 years of age was told that he had a "Bad" embouchure. I should back up and tell you that during the war years, he played trombone in Glenn Miller's band. Even at 75 his chops were better than mine ever will be. At any rate, he was told that he should "correct" his embouchure. He did and it destroyed his playing. It also destroyed him when he couldn't play anymore.
The reason I tell this story is that the book that you have with the lip exercises that ask you to adjust your lips for different ranges sounds like you are being asked to change what is working.
I have always believed that "if it ain't broke... don't fix it". Your stamina problem may not have anything to do with the way your mouthpiece sits on your mouth and I would caution you not to make radical changes to your embouchure unless there is something that is hurting you.
Good Luck.
P.S. I like the pen between the lips exercise. THAT'S HARD WORK.
The reason I tell this story is that the book that you have with the lip exercises that ask you to adjust your lips for different ranges sounds like you are being asked to change what is working.
I have always believed that "if it ain't broke... don't fix it". Your stamina problem may not have anything to do with the way your mouthpiece sits on your mouth and I would caution you not to make radical changes to your embouchure unless there is something that is hurting you.
Good Luck.
P.S. I like the pen between the lips exercise. THAT'S HARD WORK.
Hi
I was speaking to the conductor of Llywdcoed band, himself an experianced corent player. (his name escapes me, I hoped he doesn't read this) he explained a variation on the pen exercise.
simular to the one above, you place the pen in your mouth. Then you bite it, keeping your lips in contact with the pen. Hurts like hell after five minuets, i'll let you know if it works.
Glenn
I was speaking to the conductor of Llywdcoed band, himself an experianced corent player. (his name escapes me, I hoped he doesn't read this) he explained a variation on the pen exercise.
simular to the one above, you place the pen in your mouth. Then you bite it, keeping your lips in contact with the pen. Hurts like hell after five minuets, i'll let you know if it works.
Glenn
Hi
I was speaking to the conductor of Llywdcoed band, himself an experianced corent player. (his name escapes me, I hoped he doesn't read this) he explained a variation on the pen exercise.
simular to the one above, you place the pen in your mouth. Then you bite it, keeping your lips in contact with the pen. Hurts like hell after five minuets, i'll let you know if it works.
Glenn
I was speaking to the conductor of Llywdcoed band, himself an experianced corent player. (his name escapes me, I hoped he doesn't read this) he explained a variation on the pen exercise.
simular to the one above, you place the pen in your mouth. Then you bite it, keeping your lips in contact with the pen. Hurts like hell after five minuets, i'll let you know if it works.
Glenn
i will have to try the pen thing, sounds very interesting.
Some info on bach mouth pieces. I think some one mentioned using a 7E and having problems with pressure on lips, using a 7EW is detail in documents as having wider rim to help ease the pressure.
To read them you need Adobe Acrobat Reader. from www.Adobe.com
1) Different mouth piece models and info:
http://www.normans.co.uk/pdfs/Vincent%20Bach.pdf
2) History of Vincent Bach, Mouth piece info and a lil more in depth:
http://www.selmer.com/products/accessor ... hmouth.pdf
hope this helps,
Cheers.
Some info on bach mouth pieces. I think some one mentioned using a 7E and having problems with pressure on lips, using a 7EW is detail in documents as having wider rim to help ease the pressure.
To read them you need Adobe Acrobat Reader. from www.Adobe.com
1) Different mouth piece models and info:
http://www.normans.co.uk/pdfs/Vincent%20Bach.pdf
2) History of Vincent Bach, Mouth piece info and a lil more in depth:
http://www.selmer.com/products/accessor ... hmouth.pdf
hope this helps,
Cheers.
Mine was a 10 3/4 EW or something simular, I still found it way to small. The sound was very sharp and reedy. I've moved to a denis wick s which isn't cup shaped but V shaped, I wouldn't have thought you could get the notes on it (for sop) but it seems to work a treat and the sounds is much better.
Glenn.
Glenn.
Stamina
I find that stamina comes from breathing, well more the support from good breathing transferring the strain away from the lips.
I've just come back from an intensive trumpet/cornet course in Italy where we worked on basics - breathing, then mouthpiece buzzing, then lip slurs (all without using the tongue and just 'huffing' the notes) then gradually introducing some gentle tongueing on long notes (Herbert Clarke exercises).
We were recommended the Schlossberg and James Stampe methods as well.
The point that was stressed throughout the course was to just blow and see what happens rather than try and get the note. Some pressure is obviously necessary, but it should be as little as possible. It's interesting to see the effect this has when transferred to a piece rather than an exercise, now there's no straining for any note just position the lips and blow! (to begin with some of the sounds are a little strange!)
I've just come back from an intensive trumpet/cornet course in Italy where we worked on basics - breathing, then mouthpiece buzzing, then lip slurs (all without using the tongue and just 'huffing' the notes) then gradually introducing some gentle tongueing on long notes (Herbert Clarke exercises).
We were recommended the Schlossberg and James Stampe methods as well.
The point that was stressed throughout the course was to just blow and see what happens rather than try and get the note. Some pressure is obviously necessary, but it should be as little as possible. It's interesting to see the effect this has when transferred to a piece rather than an exercise, now there's no straining for any note just position the lips and blow! (to begin with some of the sounds are a little strange!)